Responses to the Study on Hell

Brother John:

When you were speaking tonight about Tartarus and what the darkness of no conviction for doing evil must be like, I was reminded of something Peter wrote which helps me see what you were saying about the "tartarized" condition of the fallen angels (1Pet 1:12): "Unto [the prophets] it was revealed that, not unto themselves but unto us they did minister the things which are now reported unto you by those who have preached the gospel unto you with the holy Ghost sent down from Heaven, which things the angels desire to look into." This shows us that angels (both fallen and faithful) desire to look into the light which we can have in Jesus. This was something God knew before hand, that even faithful angels would have the desire, but not the grace, to understand the gospel and the way of the Spirit.

Jude referred only to fallen angels when he wrote, "The angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, [God] has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" (v. 6). However, even though they are "reserved in chains under darkness", they still have a desire to dwell among the saints. If that were not the case, then why would there be evil spirits hiding amongst us, as we have found out in recent times? They certainly have a desire to be around us. Satan, especially, remembers what it was like to be in the presence of God. He envied and wanted God's glory while he was there in heaven with God, and he envies God's glory in us now, and likes to be around it. Yet, he and his angels have lost the opportunity to be blessed in any way by what they see in us. Their desire proceeds from an evil heart. In the "Tartarus" condition, nothing produces in them conviction for evildoing - not even the holiest of things that they might witness among the saints. It must bring an even greater condemnation upon them to see the wonderful blessings from God upon the body of Christ on earth.

Paul said that apostles "are made a spectacle (Greek theatron) unto the world, and to angels, and to men." It appears that God intended from the beginning for men and angels to watch us who have the Spirit, so that in the working out of our salvation, there may be a blessing for upright angels and men, and greater condemnation for ungodly angels and men.

That verse from Jude does not say that God took away the desire of fallen angels to look into the things we have, but when they "left their first estate", they lost the opportunity for that desire to lead to any blessing for them. Cast down now into this state of darkness and "chained" to it, they are condemned to become more and more guilty by whatever holy things they witness, but from which they are forever barred. They just can't stop themselves from making it ever worse for themselves in the Final Judgment.

I hope we can live so that we do not disappoint the faithful angels who are watching us, hoping to learn more about their God, if God enables them. We can learn the fear of God from many places, and if we carefully consider these things, we will learn from the example of the wretched angels who followed Satan and were, with him, cast out of Heaven into that place called "Tartarus".

Damien

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Yes, Damien!

And your comments reminded me of what Paul said that faithful saints are doing; that is, educating spiritual powers concerning the things of God: "To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in Heavenly places might be known by the Assembly the manifold wisdom of God" (Eph. 3:8-11).

jdc

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Dear Brother John,

Last night was so good for me to be able to be with you all to learn about the "abode of the dead", or Hell (and other places). Reading the handout again this morning, I was very thankful to have been there to hear the truths that were talked about. I would love to pass it on to others.

Some things that stood out and some thoughts I had were:

All who are on the earth are before the Lord, and all who are in Hell are before the Lord. There is no escape from Him in either place. All those who are there (in Hell) know that truth. I have been thinking this morning that only on earth can a wicked person believe that there is an escape from Hell and, so, receive a type of "rest" (from the fear of God). In that way only (believing a lie) is there a sort of rest for the wicked in this life.

I loved learning that Job knew that descending into Sheol was a permanent condition, but he still had hope that God would not forsake him. He knew something about what was to come in his prayer written in Job 14:13: "O that you wouldest hide me away in Sheol, that you wouldest keep me secret, until your wrath be past, that you wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me." He was looking for the appearing of Jesus while he lived, just as we do now. We also are "looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ" (Tit. 2:13).

Then, hearing how Jesus did remember those held in Paradise was so good. He rescued the righteous. He didn't forget those who trusted in Him. And now for those who belong to Him through the Spirit, He does not delay or withhold Himself when this life is over. There is no waiting anymore.

I also loved learning that God had organization in Sheol and that the righteous were separated from the wicked. That was merciful and kind. And now, even for those who waited, the discomfort they felt is at an end.

There are still things that are going around in my head from last night. It was so good. Thank you.

Adam

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Brother John,

I understood tonight that Hell was not created for man, but for the Devil and his angels. Does this mean that the Devil and his angels sinned before Adam and Eve?

Bro Randell

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Hi Brother Randell:

Where in the Bible study did we read that Hell was not made for men? You must be one of those who think that Gehenna is Hell! :)

Matthew 25:41 tells us only that there is a fire prepared for the Devil and his angels (rather than for people, we assume). But which fire is that? Hell or the Lake of Fire? I think the evidence points exclusively to the latter.

But as to your question, yes, the Devil sinned before Adam and Eve did. Otherwise, there would have been no serpent to deceive Eve in the Garden of Eden. As for the angels that followed the Devil in his wickedness, I suppose that they fell into sin shortly after the Devil fell, but the Bible does not give us a time frame there.

John

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Daddy,

I take it that the Devil and his angels sinned before Adam and Eve but were not cast out of Heaven until Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. I wonder if God even pointed the Devil out in Heaven as "a bad guy", or if He kept all of it in His heart, letting him deceive those he could of the angels until they were all suddenly gone. . . . Is there any evidence one way or another?

te.

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Hi Token:

The evil spirits were still in God's presence in Heaven during the Old Testament (e.g. 1Kgs. 22:19-23). At least, they had easy access to the Almighty. God spoke with them, and they with Him. In the case from 1Kings 22, God spoke quite openly with an evil spirit, in what was something like a heavenly counsel, about that demon coming to earth to be a lying spirit in the mouths of the false prophets in Israel. So, all the Heavenly host must have known there was evil among them.

The attitude of the faithful angels, cherubim, seraphim, and other Heavenly creatures is unknown, but we can surmise from certain of Jesus' teachings that it was one of patience. (After all, who in Heaven has authority to do anything that God has not commanded?) I am thinking in particular of Jesus' parable of the tares in the field. In that parable, God's servants wanted to rid the field of the tares immediately upon discovery that they were there. But God forbade them to do so until His appointed time. The attitude of those servants of God then had to change, and it did, once they heard His voice and learned what His will was.

So, there seems to have been among the faithful creatures in Heaven a knowledge that some of them had become wicked. And when they saw God do nothing immediately about it, they resolved to share Heaven with unfaithful Heavenly creatures in quiet confidence until God's appointed time (whenever that would be). They must have wanted badly for the wicked to be cast out, though, for when the Son of God returned home and Satan and his followers were finally cast out, the faithful creatures rejoiced (Rev. 12:1-12).

You will remember also that Jesus tolerated Judas in silence for years, even to the point of keeping the other disciples in the dark about him. Indeed, even up to the moment Judas exposed himself as the betrayer by leading the mob to arrest Jesus in Gethsemene, the other disciples (with the possible exception of John), thought Judas was a disciple in good standing.

Daddy

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John,

There are many thoughts that arise from last night. Kay and I had a good time this morning discussing it and reading some verses from the Bible.

We read Romans 9:14-23. In particular, these verses stood out (22-23): "What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory."

"Fitted to destruction" reminded me of 2Peter's statement, "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed", which is an amazing statement now that we have more understanding of it. These vessels of wrath are not merely endured with longsuffering but with much longsuffering. In doing this, Paul says God is showing His wrath and making His power known; but to whom? Surely to those who are being blessed in the way verse 23 describes. As much as the Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah are examples to us, so it is when we see someone in this state. I expect that we will see more of it in the future. God wants us to understand it now.

This was the same passage (the one from Romans) that I was considering when the Lord posed two questions to me: (1) "If I told you that, no matter what you did, you would not be saved, what would you do?" This question came with the feeling that I would retain the knowledge of God I had (or at least I thought that I did or that I was right), and (2) "If I showed you a way to be saved, then what would you do?"

I now know the first question was describing the state, or close to it, of being "tartarized". Utterly helpless and unable to do anything that counted as right before God. Everything wrong in His eyes!

Kay and I also discussed the fact that for a long time Satan and demons, as angels in Heaven, were able to come before God and hear God and even receive instruction in what to do. We wondered about the many ministers of Christianity (Xty) who do hear from God. A "tartarized" person may still be allowed into the presence of God and truly hear from God, and yet it is all damning them the more certainly. It seems to me that Xty itself must be connected to this casting into Tartarus in some way. The rejection of light by early believers was rewarded by God with the darkness of Xty, but still God has a time yet reserved for His people to get out of it before it is cast into that inescapable place when God sends the "strong delusion".

The way into Tartarus is to refuse to repent. If that is your heart's wish, then God will grant it. Getting into Tartarus may be more a process than an instantaneous thing. The mercy of God may just make it that way because "when He makes a way to His wrath" there is no escape.

Paul, Peter, John and Jude wrote letters which show that they saw the rising up of this unrepentant spirit. They marveled at it and warned those who could hear them. Clearly, Peter and Jude discerned in the Spirit that some had been abandoned by God. We live in a time when God is revealing truth to us, and it must surely come to pass that this truth will be widely known and taught. The more we have from God, the more is expected of us, and the greater the possible punishments for rejection. These are clear principles in God.

This is wonderful, but so fearful.

Damien

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John:

Damien wrote: "The way into Tartarus is to refuse to repent. If that is your heart's wish, then God will grant it."

Wow, John, this was a good insight by Damien. What a thought!

When we refuse to repent, it seems that non-repentance is what we want with "all our heart". And one day God will give us our "heart's desire" - just as He said. He will give us a place to live eternally where we will not, and cannot, repent - and all that goes with it.

Gary

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Yes, that comment stood out to me, too.

jdc

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Hey.

Damien wrote: "The way into Tartarus is to refuse to repent. If that is your heart's wish, then God will grant it. Getting into Tartarus may be more a process than an instantaneous thing."

Does that mean that people can be in a half-tartarized state?

te.

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No. It's all or nothing. Either it is hopeless (Tartarus) or there is hope. That said, it is normal that, as with anything else, whether a blessing or a curse, a person would descend slowly over time, by degrees of disobedience and dullness of heart, into the condition in which he would provoke God to curse him like that.

jdc

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Hi:

I loved what you gave us last night about being "tartarized". It put more fear of God in me than ever, but at the same time, it gives me more encouragement than ever. It makes me want to obey God more than ever. And it feels cleaner than ever. I love that.

During the night, I kept having thoughts about the word "adulterous". I would have different thoughts all through the night. The first was that a person can be physically close to their spouse - but if they have physically been with someone else, or if in their heart they are not with their spouse - that is adulterous. Then I remembered how Jesus defined adultery, that even if a man looked and lusted after a woman, he had already committed adultery in his heart. I was also remembering what we read last night in the Tartarus study, how it is better to be one way or the other - but being "mixed" is worse than all. Then I was having thoughts of the great whore in Revelation, Christianity. She is not even married. She is not in covenant with God, but she loves the physical act - Christianity loves the physical act of worshiping God. But that's all that they have - it is just of the flesh. And then how God is calling His children to "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

It all goes back to the heart! That's just what we hear God saying to His people through the prophets. I don't know quite how to put it all together, but it feels like I am learning something.

Donna

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Hi Sister Donna:

Yes, it does feel as if you are learning something.

I would not at all say that the children of God who are still inside Christianity have nothing but the ceremonial forms of the Christian religion with which to worship. After all, to be a child of God means to have the holy Spirit within, by which one can really worship God. But I must say that, being in Christianity, their worship is "mixed", which to God has always been the worst spiritual state to be in. If the biblical attitude of God holds true in this case, God would rather His children either be nothing but Christians or be completely separated from that abomination ("Come out of her!"). It is God's children, trying to force a mixture of His Spirit with the great whore's lovely, wicked spirit, that causes most of the confusion and division that exists among the saints on earth today. May God save us from that great mistake!

jdc

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John:

I have a question. If a person has been "tartarized", the way I understand it, there is no coming back. But when I think of the king eating grass several years, would that be an example of reversal?

Wendell

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Hi Wendell:

Since last night, that question has already been asked of me a couple of times.

You were right with your first thought, Wendell. There is no coming back from Tartarus. God doesn't play around with people's souls. He is eternally serious about every judgment He makes. No one in Tartarus can possibly return to this good life where God speaks to man and guides him toward righteousness.

King Nebuchadnezzar was not sent into Tartarus by God when he was given the mind of an animal. I say that with confidence because it is obvious that with the mind of an animal out in the field eating grass, Nebuchadnezzar could not have been sinning at all, just as animals do not sin, and much less was the king sinning constantly, as those in Tartarus are condemned always to do.

I think that anyone who claims that he has been to Tartarus and back is either ignorant or he is trying to impress people with an extraordinary tale and false humility. Or, it could possibly be that he is under the wicked influence of Catholicism, which teaches that "Purgatory" exists. That is an imaginary place, sort of a half-Hell, invented by ancient religious myth-makers as a destination after death for people who did not obey God in this life but weren't all that bad. Therefore, they are rewarded with a second chance to go to Paradise (after they have been "purged" in Purgatory from their sins by suffering an appropriate length of time). But it is foolish to think that any amount of suffering on our part can purge our sins. Only the blood of Christ can do that for us, and no man of God ever taught that after death, that precious, sin-cleansing blood is still available to sinners.

jdc

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Hello John.

Thank you for your message last night on "tartarization". I am thankful for some meat, John - meat that makes me lie on my bed at night and pray for God to help me, to have mercy on me, to help me love Him more, and to obey Him. Of course, it takes "doing" - and for that, we have the power of the holy Ghost. Most of God's children do not have such a privilege to "eat" what we eat, John. I want to stay VERY thankful for being allowed at this table. May God bless all His children to hear things from Him that we do regularly through you.

John, Wendell's question and your answer brought some thoughts to me of these verses in 2Peter 3:9-11: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the Heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness."

Just because God does not immediately strike us dead when we sin (or even when we are weak and sin multiple times), does not mean He is "slack". It does not mean we have gotten by, or that He does not consider it important.

But God's longsuffering is SO great, and His offering of repentance is SO generous that it's hard to take in. But as Peter said, He is not slack either. If correction comes time and time again, and we don't let the Spirit fix it - what will God's options be? Either death for our good, or tartarization, or damnation.

My point is this: Personally, since I have been in this truth, I have NEVER seen a situation where you had not been working to correct a person MANY times before God eventually sent them away somewhere (in their heart first, and then in their body). It is just as God says - He is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish. But there comes "a time". It has been different with each person - a different level of patience and a different amount of time the door stayed open.

But then, there was a time when it was over. When that time is, God knows. But it's not something to be played around with or delayed, when correction comes our way. We need to fix it with all our heart, soul, AND BODY! We need to fix it FAST! What manner of people ought we to be in all holiness, godliness, and lifestyle, knowing the time WILL come?

Gary

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Bro. John:

Thank you! I am so grateful that I had the opportunity to proofread your study on What the Bible really says about Hell. What a wonderful experience I found in the pages of your study!

First of all, as I read in the beginning how you and the boys began your study, I was not expecting to find a "pause" page that so tenderly spoke of the Father and the Son and the "innocent pain" that they both endured so that we could be where we are today. My! "Innocent pain". I had never thought of pain in that way, but that is exactly what it was - innocent. Considering the innocent pain they both endured touched me deeply. I felt the love as I read it.

As I continued reading, I found myself not so much "engulfed in the flames" of Hell as I was overwhelmed by the love of God in everything I was reading. I realized that this was not just a study on Hell, but a wonderful Story of God, God's love, God's power, God's righteousness, God's justice, God's patience, God's longsuffering towards mankind - just plain "God". God is right; God is fair; God is just. God is all powerful. God's power can destroy or save. I found myself several times stopping and asking myself, "Do you believe what you are reading?" I knew that if I did, it would compel me to live God's way, wanting only His desires in my heart.

After I completed the reading, I sat soaking in what I had just read. It was a Story of God the Creator. He is the only One with Power to "take and destroy" or "save and restore". And this side of the grave is the only place we can live according to God's will. After death, all is said and done. Nothing else can be accomplished. As Brother Darren's song says: "How should we live, knowing the soul never dies?"

Thank you for this Story of God.

Sandy

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Hi John.

This evening I began to read through your Hell study and as I got to around page 22 in the "Can Anyone Escape Hell" section, I started to have some feelings, and I began to drift into them. You were talking about men of Bible having faith to believe that God would deliver them from Sheol, and then having Jesus deliver them from it, and a feeling of appreciation flooded me. It all depended on Jesus!

I laid the study down on my chest and let gratitude fill me. I thanked God for many things . . . for Jesus, especially that he has made my heart open to the truth, and that He has made my life perfect for me - just because he loves me. He, because it pleased Him, has given me understanding in Him, and a love for truth that many "mighty" earthly men do not have. He has kept me, preserved me, and has created circumstances throughout life that have thus far kept the lust of the flesh, or the pride of life, or any other weakness or sin from sweeping me away. He has given me a holy Spirit that has the power and the love that will keep me from that place I am reading about - Hell. He paid the price. He did it all. These were some of my thoughts as I stopped reading - I just wanted to give glory to Him.

OK, then I picked the book back up and flipped back to page 23. There, I read, "Let's Pause a Minute to Honor God"!!!! Wow! It goes on . . . "We are loved by God!". . . "We must avoid the pitfall of pride, lest our study become merely academic". . . "It was by the willingness of the Son and of the Father to suffer that we may have eternal life". . . "so, give praise and honor to both the Father and the Son for the pain they endured to bring about so great a salvation", etc.

It sure was a wonderful feeling to have already done those things when I read it. To be exhorted to do the very thing God had just put in my heart to do, did something in me! That was God putting it in my heart to give Him glory . . . for only He knew what was on the next page! I love His ways and His feelings.

I'm enjoying the book very much. But I really wanted to pause and testify to my experience.

Good night and thank you for your labor.

Gary

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If after reading the book, you feel like offering humble praise to God, then you got the point.

So far, so good - from you and Sandy.

jdc

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Brother John:

When we researched the question, "Do people in Hell worship God?", we found out that they cannot. From Psalm 6:5, we read, "For in death there is no remembrance of thee (God); in Sheol who shall give you thanks?" Wow.

So, my conclusion is that you should do all of your praising God on earth, live right, and then, praise God in heaven with all the others that make it there. Then you won't even have to worry about Sheol, much less the Lake of Fire.

Aaron
(one of "the boys")

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Thanks, Aaron.

I will try to remember to do that . . . while I can.

jdc

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The End